"The interesting thing is that people keep thinking that, eventually, we'll turn the corner and make him the Batman of the Tim Burton movies. We're never going to do that..."- Hans Zimmer
The "dynamic duo" HANS ZIMMER AND JAMES NEWTON HOWARD share their thoughts on how they have continued in the collaborative tradition begun with the first film, their treatment of themes for Batman and the Joker, and about "the note."
coming back together to work on the THE DARK KNIGHT?
JAMES NEWTON HOWARD: It seemed very natural. Our studios are only 5 blocks apart, so we see each other a lot in our day to day lives.
HANS ZIMMER: Curiously, we are actually friends!
JAMES NEWTON HOWARD: Yes! We are very good friends. We have established a sound or a vocabulary for what BATMAN is about, so we were able to do something that was a little less traditional this time out.
CC: Now, I recently asked HARRY GREGSON- WILLIAMS about his experience scoring PRINCE CASPIAN after THE LION, THE WITCH, and the WARDROBE, and he remarked that in this case it was more difficult doing the sequel. Was that true for you two with THE DARK KNIGHT?
HANS ZIMMER: Well, I did a whole bunch of these "pirate movies" [laughs] and on those I'd have to say the sequels were much more difficult. So, knowing that, I approached this film in a slightly different way. Thinking to myself, "This is interesting. This time I can actually play with the concepts established in the first one." In BATMAN BEGINS we established the watermark or the template and so we wanted to see how we could crash into those things in an interesting way. We wanted to reinvent it some or just move the pieces around a little bit. I wanted to see just where this world has gone to and to embrace the changes that have taken place in Gotham City from 3 years ago. (And you know, coming back to America after being gone for 5 years, you'd be surprised just how many changes have taken place. Just try to get through immigration!)
CC: About a year ago you remarked that the character of Batman, in the first film, had not yet earned the full theme that you had originally written for him and that he might finally do that in THE DARK KNIGHT. Has that proven to be true?
HANS ZIMMER: There was a theme that Chris (Nolan) really liked for the first film, but I kept thinking that this theme just isn't our Batman. So I managed to get rid of the theme and, both James and I, managed to put some new themes and very new ideas into this one. The interesting thing is that people keep thinking that, eventually, we'll turn the corner and make him the Batman of the Tim Burton movies. We're never going to do that because we are dealing with a whole different predicament, a whole different mindset, quite a different philosophy.
JAMES NEWTON HOWARD: I think that is such a good point because there is such a convention and an expectation when it comes to superheroes or Summer-blockbuster movies having to have this theme that you go around whistling. When we did the last movie and they listened to the score, the studio loved it and all went berserk. The theme that Hans had written for Batman was very non-traditional. It's more of a texture and an idea and a feeling. The studio really "got that" and I think people, in general, really "got that" as well. I think its a conceit that we never really had to go there and turn him into a traditional superhero.
HANS ZIMMER: The thing we really worked hard on for BATMAN BEGINS was this idea of an iconic motif. Now, what James has just said is absolutely right. The studio loved it, but I don't think they quite realized how iconic it was...until after these few years have gone by. And now when you hear those two notes, you don't have to see Batman on the screen. You know he is coming and that this is a "Batman film" and nothing but a "Batman film." So this time out, I instantly tried to go and pervert (and that's the only word I can think of to describe it) what we had done before, because his world is different. His philosophical challenges are different. His point of view is forever being attacked. With very little, I managed to go and skewer it a little bit more toward the corrosive and toward the darker.
JAMES NEWTON HOWARD: And in the process, I have to say that, Hans wrote a fantastic Batman theme. One that we barely put into the movie.
HANS ZIMMER: Yes...and we could play this whole game again of "Oh! If we ever do another film, maybe we'll use it!" But you know, maybe we never have to.
CC: In regards to BATMAN BEGINS you've mentioned that you two split the music up by having you, Hans, write the "dark" material, and you, James, write the "elegant" material. Did you divide the work up similarly for THE DARK KNIGHT or did you spread or mix your efforts out this time?
HANS ZIMMER: Well its darker and more elegant this time. How about that? Actually, I think we are more extreme this time.
JAMES NEWTON HOWARD: I think we integrated even less.
HANS ZIMMER: What became an interestingly stylistic thing is, for example, the music for the Joker. He is a very uncompromising character and so he has very uncompromising music. I think some people will not call it music.
JAMES NEWTON HOWARD: I think some people will be irritated by it.
HANS ZIMMER: Interestingly, this is supposed to be a Hollywood, Summer-blockbuster, but I think the music is nothing like that. It's way out there in places. Take, for instance, the harshness or perversion of the Joker's music and then have that collide with the beauty of the Harvey Dent character. I think that is what makes it interesting. The good thing is that I did not write Harvey Dent. It's very much James' creation. I just stayed in the darkness of the Joker character. It's amazing dealing with a character who is completely fearless.
CC: Now that you mention the Joker's theme, you've been quoted as saying that you had written a two-note motif for him, but somehow it didn't quite work. Why didn't it work and what did you end up doing?
HANS ZIMMER: I pretty much got it down to one note. That was really the mission from the beginning. All iconic ideas are usually based on only a few elements. It just takes a very long time to figure out how to do it. I've always had the idea in my head but I just didn't know how to do it. I tortured a lot of musicians because it was all about performance, tone, and sound. I think I spent 3 months on the one note. I played it for James first and then played it to Chris (Nolan).
JAMES NEWTON HOWARD: It knocked my socks off! I have to say that it really made me jealous when I heard it. You'll understand when you hear it.
CC: I'm looking forward to hearing it. Well our time is running short here, so let me ask you just a couple of final questions. First, was there any thought at any time, that THE DARK KNIGHT would be scored alone by either one of you?
JAMES NEWTON HOWARD: Let me just jump in and say that Hans could easily have done this on his own.
HANS ZIMMER: Not without my friend! But let me ask you this, James, "Was I right in having both of us do it?"
JAMES NEWTON NOWARD: Oh yes. You were right. No doubt about it.
CC: If there is a third film, can we expect you both to come back and score it?
HANS ZIMMER: Only if Chris Nolan is writing it with his brother and directing it.
JAMES NEWTON HOWARD: Yes...in that case, I think we'd jump right in again.
HANS ZIMMER: You have to realize that you are talking to the composers who are a part of a team: the actors, the editors, the cinematographer. You know, what would we do without all of these people?
